After we have finished viewing "Ma Vie En Rose", we will be having a discussion that will tie together both the themes of the film and the story of baby x.
In preparation for the discussion, please reflect on the following in the comments section:
Both pieces, Ma Vie En Rose and X hint at the question of whether gender identity & our understanding of our own gender identity is biological or if it is socially constructed. Discuss how each piece examines this debate and what your perception is/was of this question.
I think that gender identity, for most people, is constructed by society based on biological gender identity. I think majority of people want to fit in with society and by wanting this they follow the socially constructed stereotypes. Many people assume that just because you are biologically one gender your automatically connect emotionally with that gender. Following the gender stereotypes is not always the right path for some people. I think people should feel comfortable with their gender identity because it is part of who they are. Our society has somewhat of peer pressure for your biological gender fit your gender identity (meaning guys follow the guys stereotypes and girls follow the girl stereotypes). I personally think a person should choose their own gender identity and not base it on stereotypes or what people expect because if you don’t choose how can you fulfill your life happily? How would it feel if you were biologically one gender but your gender identity told you other wise, like in the Ludo in the movie? I don’t understand why people have problems with this. Why do people care how other people identify? I feel like our society has set a norm for gender identity and that that is what is expected. But why do some people expect everyone to follow this “norm”?
ReplyDeleteI think in the story baby X it proved that gender was based more on nurture then biology. The raised the baby to be neutral without picking a side and the baby was neutral. The baby X didn't lean more to one side or the other as biology would have it. Because the parents exposed the child to both boy and girl things it had no preference of its own. In Ma Vie En Rose it shows the opposite argument that ones sex is determined more by nature than by nurture. When the parents are at the therapist they share that they didn't raise Ludovic any differently as the other boys. This suggests that nurture was not the defining force behind Ludovic's behavior, but perhaps something more of a "scientific error" as he says. Ludo was born believing he was a girl just in the body of a boy. I don't think the issue is black or white i think its a combination of nature and nurture that cannot be explained by studies, speculation, or science. not yet atleast.
ReplyDeleteI think that our gender identity is mostly socially constructed. When we are younger it seems that younger kids cross the gender lines a bit more than older one. My little brother for example, when he was maybe around two or three years old always used to want to play with my dolls and Barbies, and as he got older and was more exposed to gender stereotypes he stopped. My three year old nephew is also like this, though his interest in toys include a little bit of "girls toys" and "Boy toys." If people didn't make such a big deal about gender lines and what boys and girls can and cannot do, or wear then maybe boys would take more interest in "girl stuff" and more girls would take interest in "boy stuff." It's because of these boundaries that are made and "rules" that must be followed that people tend to associate their gender based of the stereotypes that are shown in the media, and at home. Now there is always an exception to every rule, some people like Ludovic tend to want to associate with the opposite gender despite the boundaries that are set up by society, but for the most part I would say that our gender identity is MOSTLY determined by society.
ReplyDeleteAs shown in Ma Vie En Rose, "gender" doesn't depend on society at all. Although the kid's parents treated him the same way as their other children, and his classmates made fun of him, he still knew that he was really a girl, no matter if he hid it or not. The part that's determined by society is how the different genders are supposed to act and look.. Not how they feel. I believe that Ludo could just /tell/ he was a girl like the same way other people find out what gender they're attracted to.
ReplyDeleteThe baby X story was completely illogical in terms of this... Even if a kid didn't know what genders were, and were totally brainwashed by their parents, they would still develop preferances. They would also recognise the difference in genders just by going into the world, and be able to figure out which they most relat to, even if it wasn't their own.
I think "My Life in Pink" is biological. Despite how much he wants to be a girl (even after being made fun of and when he went through therepy etc). However, like there were a section in the movie, despite how much he wants to be a girl, he is still a XY and not a XX. And as long as he is a boy in a biological sense, society could not accept him as a girl. Therefore I believed that it is biological.
ReplyDeleteEven in X, it was definately biological. X was raised without looking or acting a specific gender, therefore society was so frustrated and could not determine X his/her gender. Therefore, if it could not be determined socially, then it should be determined biologically.
One is that despite how much one wants to be another gender he could not because he was a male biologically and social could not change that or accept what one wants he wants to be-a girl. And another is also biological since society couldn't define him/her a specific gender, so it must be biological.
In my opinion, there is common ground between how Ma Vie En Rose and X view gender identity. Both of these fictional stories seem to illustrate that one's personal gender identity is determined by one's self, but society determines gender in terms of biology.
ReplyDeleteIn Ma Vie En Rose, Ludo is biologically male (despite what he says, we can be pretty sure he is an XY male, although there are a tiny, tiny fraction of XX males). Even though Ludo is part of the male sex, he has determined for himself that his gender is female. The society around him though wants him to be male though, because that's who he is biologically.
In X, we aren't sure what X biologically is (although I have my own opinion) and the society X lives in doesn't either. In my interpretation of the text, the trouble begins with society's need to know what X is biologically. In the story as well as in reality, gender is a social construct of society built around biology.
I think people's understanding of gender identity is for the most part based on society, but has its foundation in biological ways. We associate certain things about gender, like behaviors, actions, and appearances based on what biological factors contribute to gender. For example, in Ma Vie En Rose, Ludo thought that all of his problems with his life at school and family would be solved once he got his X chromosome back so that he could be a girl. Literally, if he had that combination of chromosomes he would biologically be considered a girl. However, in reality, the reasons of him wanting to be a girl were based on society such as what girls wear, how they look, and the kinds of things they do.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I initially considered gender to be an entirely biological thing. Before this unit, I'm not sure I could actually define what transgendered is. In "Ma Vie en Rose", society treats Ludovic poorly as if how he felt could be controlled, as if gender were entirely biologically constructed. It portrays the neighbors as ignorant and we start to understand that Ludo, being 7 years old, actually feels like a girl inside and truly believes that God made a mistake in making him a boy. This depicts gender as socially constructed. X displays biologically reasons. Like X is in reality a boy/girl. People just don't know.
ReplyDeletethe movie and the story, x, both intend that gender is something that is based on society and not really on the physical gender itself. they say that most of the things kids do are gender based because the parents make them do that. Society is giving the kids a role, probably too early, that they have to fit in in order to be seen as a "normal kid". the biological aspect of gender is not really a important in either of the stories, since the basic outcome of the stories is that the gender just starts to matter when the kids are older.
ReplyDeletei personally think that a gender is something biological but that does not say that one cant feel like he/she is another gender. To say that every toy and clothing a kid wears is stereotypical or is giving the kid some impressions or social burdens is wrong and i do not think that the social pressure on kids is that high like both stories, especially the movie, portrait. differnent to x's opinion i would say that genders matter before the puberty too since sigmund freud said that kids do have their phallic phase (and yes, i know that you don't like wikipedia, but it is just the easiest way to find something if you did not know the name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosexual_development ) very early (from their 3-5 year) which means that kids explore their own body and sexuality way earlier than just during their puberty. I think that sexuality and gender is connected. damning the stereotyping is wrong because they apply sometimes. (my sisters for example could have played with my or my brother's toys too but the usually play with their stuffed animals and i always drew castles and battleships in kindergarden, my sisters usually horses and flowers. i think that this is funny, because i dont think anybody told us what to draw)
i put a lot of stuff out there, just to summarize that a little i would say that damning stereotyping and blaming the society for giving everybody a gender wrong. although i believe that kids get sexual feelings and gender based hormons very early biologically, i can see that some kids just feel some other way than "regular boys/girls" (and that sounds sooooo mean, but i dont know any other way how to say that).
In X, the child was raised with equal exposure to both male and female norms, showing that a person is allowed to enjoy and display him/herself as partly masculine and partly feminine. In Ma Vie En Rose, Ludo truly believes that he is a girl, but due to his biological make up, the world views him as male. I believe that gender is absolutely partly based on personal identity, but I also think that biology plays a huge role. I was watching Americas Next Top Model today and I started thinking so much of the gender stuff we've talked about in class. In the show, Ms. J walks down the runway in heels and a dress. society would usually deem him a girl based on these stereotypes. However, I, and probably a ton of other people still view him as totally male, based on his biological make up and his masculine, deep voice.
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ReplyDeleteI think how people perceive gender is definitely a mixture of nurture and nature. By nature, we are given a biological gender, male or female, and the corresponding body parts and hormones. However, based on nurture/society, we learn how our gender is supposed to act. In X, nurture is the more influential force for determining gender. Baby X is not treated to favor one gender or the other, so he grows up enjoying feminine and masculine activities. However in Ma Vie En Rose, we see a different force. This force is based on individuality. Ludo is biologically male, and society repeatedly tries to force him to be one. Yet Ludo is convinced that he is a girl, or should be a girl. So this poses the question of there being a third force, nurture, nature and one's own mind.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Charlotte said about why kids need to follow "social norms". In Ma Vie En Rose, gender is both biologically and socially constructed. Ludovic was treated like a boy by his family and was made fun of by his classmates about wanting to be a girl. At one point, he was upset when one of the boys, at the new school he went to, hit him. He was only seven years old. I don't think any boy at the age of seven would "act tough". Also, the whole family was in trouble because Ludovic's "behavior" was causing problems in the neighborhood. No one, not even his parents were willing to accept his wanting to be a girl.
ReplyDeleteLike Charlotte said, people shouldn't base their identity on steryotypes. So what if Ludo wanted to be a girl and was, in a way, a homosexual (although at this age, it would be hard to understand)? He is still a human, and I felt so bad when people called his situation "a problem", because it was not a problem, it was just how he felt. I also think the family should have been much more supportive of who he was. I mean, he was their child after all.
Baby X was just biological. That was based on how he was raised. He was given a little bit of both, and people really wanted to know what gender the baby was. I think the story showed a good experiment. If the parents had told the neighbors, they would say "He should have been doing, this, not this." (referring to the boy games and girl games).
I agree that gender is a social construct - kids are treated as a certain gender, and after some time fall into the interests and behaviors that are expected of them. I think Ludovic is more aware of his identity and who he wants to be, and because that image fits more with that associated with a girl, he thinks there must have been some mistake when he was made a boy. It's interesting, though, that Ludovic comes to so drastic a conclusion. If all people have both "male" and "female" characteristics, how come most people accept the role that is set out from them by society? Perhaps there is something more going on with Ludovic than a assurance of his own identity, but no matter what, people should not treat him differently because of that.
ReplyDeleteWhen we are born, we associate with the gender that we are "given" biologically. As we grow up, we learn what society expects our given gender to act like, and we act accordingly (for the most part, to fit into society). Besides the physical differences between the sexes, there are most likely differences on the inside too (like our preferences etc), although there is definitely overlap and no definite boundaries.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am having trouble understanding is that everyone is saying that your gender is something that is created by society, and I agree that society encourages, say, girls to play with dolls and not with trucks. At the same time, people are saying that these stereotypes are not good and not true the the essential nature of a human. That may also be true. However, if society has created these gender boundaries and they are not real, than how can we be crossing or not crossing them if they don't exist?
According to this logic, Ludo is of the male sex and the male gender. It is society that has said that Ludo can't wear skirts and have long hair etc--there is no natural law that says that. So perhaps it is natural for boys to do things that society generally associates with girl behavior. The story about Baby X reinforces this idea. Because the baby wasn't forced to conform to society's ideas regarding one gender, X was able to be free to express x's self in the way x saw most fitting.
Sometimes it’s hard to fathom the fact that some people are born a particular way biologically, but mentally and emotionally feel a different way about their gender. However, this is something that does happen and I think that it this understanding of our own gender identity is primarily socially constructed. As said many times before, there are these unwritten rules for boys and girls and how they are supposed to behave/live their lives. This is the socially constructed part. At the same time, mostly everyone is biologically one sex or another, which just in itself can make someone believe they are that gender which is what is most common.
ReplyDeleteI think the stories 'X' and 'Ma Vie en Rose' come from two different view points. 'X' gives the idea that your gender is how you are raised and not by what you are born to be. This is shown with the baby X doing both sterotypical boy/girl activities. The need to make baby X's sex biological came from the society around it. Much like our own society.
ReplyDelete'Ma Vie en Rose' on the other hand comes from the view point that your gender is more a biological thing. It seemed to me that the movie was saying that Ludovic believing he was a girl was a chemical thing. Ludovic was so incisitent that he was a girl no matter what his family and friends said.
I think gender is something that is set by society and our parents before we are even born. Before we are able to make that decision ourselves. If your a boy you room gets made like this and you play with certain toys. Same with girls. Society has its set ways that everyones use to following, so it's generally always the same. In X it shows how not knowing a persons gender can cause trouble at first but then doesnt really matter. In fact it brought the best out of the kids and they became more accepting. X learned to be tough and loving. It could be both and satisfy all guidelines of "gender." In Mia Vie en Rose it shows how gender is formed completely by society. LUdo can only live how he wants to within his fantasies. Even the people who initially support him lose their grip because they see it as just a phase. When they see he carries through it's too different and they are taken back by it. But they have to support him because he's family. He has to have a backbone of some kind
ReplyDeleteAt the risk of reiterating what half the comments have already said, I agree that gender is a social construct built on the foundation of biological sex. In both "X" and "Ma Vie en Rose", the adult, fully-integrated members of society are horribly concerned with the biological sex of the main character, X and Ludo, respectively. They hold firmly to expectations based on this belief, and are appalled when X and Ludo don't seem to follow the accepted norms of gender roles. Meanwhile, the children in both stories show more leniency (more so in "X" than in "Ma Vie en Rose", with the exception of Jerome), and are more willing to understand rather than condemn.
ReplyDeleteBoth stories, then, challenge the idea that gender is defined by sex, questioning the reasons for the disparity between parents' and children's views. The questions prompt us to reflect more deeply on the real connection (or lack thereof) behind gender and sex, as seen through more innocent (and, if I may, uncorrupted) eyes.
Personally, I believe the terminology of gender and sex is at least partially at fault for the confusion and conflicting viewpoints on this issue. We use the words "gender" and "sex" interchangeably, as if they were the same thing. In fact, I remember distinctly in elementary school when a teacher told us to ask "What is your gender?" rather than "What is your sex?" because "sex" was too naughty a word for children. It then took me until last year to finally untangle the two words, their definitions and their implications.
On an unrelated note, I'm wondering, are we going to talk about sexuality in a unit separate from gender? (This is probably in the course description from the beginning of the year...but I've misplaced mine. Sorry, Ms. Ruback.) Because I was struck by one scene in "Ma Vie en Rose", when Ludo's mother tells him that he's gay because he's a boy who likes other boys--and all I could think of was, "Well, actually, since Ludo is psychologically female, the fact that she likes boys would make her straight."
Anyway. I'm rambling. Time for June to shut up and go to sleep...
There are a lot of gender stereotypes that everyone is faced with, and while stereotypes are often not true, some have some basis in fact. Gender stereotypes would be more accurate I think if we realized that more girls will play with dolls than boy, but if a boy wanted to play with a doll, encourage him to do that. I think that a baby like baby X is unlikely, no one would be that balanced between the genders, because there is a little bit of a biological influence. But the social influence on children from the moment they're born is much stronger than any biological influence. Even if a child's parents use no gender stereotypes to raise their children will be exposed to those stereotypes in school.
ReplyDeleteMa vie en Rose looks at gender from a social perspective and a mentality. Though Ludovic has all of the biological compnents of a male, in his mind he is a girl, through and through. The film speaks to gender identity being a quality of the personality, rather than a definite secured by nature. Baby X is defined in gender through society, but is mentality free from biological restriction. In both cases, the mental side has power over nature
ReplyDeleteI think Ma Vie En Rose suggests that gender identity is biological, however X hints at it being socially constructed. In Ma Vie En Rose, Ludo knows that he is a girl and is set on that belief. Although the rest of society is unhappy and wants him to act like a boy, he is set on being a girl. Even with the outside influences, such as the therapist and “boy talk”, Ludo is determined to act as a girl.
ReplyDeleteIn X, however, the baby’s identity is decided entirely by its social setting. Its parents treat it neither as just a boy or girl and sets conditions to make sure nothing in its environment would affect that. X then decides that it is neither a boy or girl. X only made that decision after his environment had been under complete control by his parents.
I think that gender identity is decided by a mix of your environment and biological. You are born a certain way, but the environment can either enforce that, or make you question it.
When we first started this unit on gender, I thought that gender was strictly biological, but my view has changed and I now think that society has an influence on gender because of societal standards. The story, "X" focuses more on the fact that gender is influenced by society and the way someone is raised. X is raised as a gender-neutral child and then gets to decide whether it wants to be a girl or a boy. Its gender was based entirely by society and societal norms. However, Ma Vie En Rose is from the perspective that gender is biological. Ludo wants to be a girl, but his entire family (except his crazy grandmother) thinks he is a boy beccause he is biologically a boy. I found the story of how Ludo "lost" one of his x's and it was replaced with a y to be very amusing, especially coming from a seven-year-old's point of view. Although his society has some say in Ludo's gender, the society only wants people to follow the standards for their biological gender. This is seen when they spray paint Ludo's house with "bent boys go home" and when the parents sign a petition to kick Ludo out of school. Through all of these actions against him, Ludo still thinks he is girl, showing how gender is a biological concept in the movie.
ReplyDeleteI think that gender identity is biological, yet it can feel like it is effected socially. In Ma Vie En Rose, Ludo is only seven years old, which is even a little young to be figuring out your identity. It is highly unlikely that Ludo's gender identity was socially driven because he is so young. He is also at an age where children are just learning to express themselves, thereby proving why he thinks he is should be a girl. In the story of baby X, its gender identity was socially driven, but only to fulfill the experiment. Instead, its identity drove the other children to be more like it. For instance, the boys started to do more stereotypically feminine things and vice versa.
ReplyDeleteI think that gender is a combination. People treat you differently depending on your gender. People expect people of certain genders to do certain things and to act a certain way. However, there definitely is a biological component. Scientific studies have proven that male and female brains are different. Hormones also have a lot to do with gender as well. Also, the toys we play with help us in later life like girls play with baby dolls out of maternal instinct – a natural instinct that can’t be overruled that easily. Ma Vie En Rose shows that gender is biological – Ludovic goes completely against the façade of the socially constructed gender stereotypes and obeys his natural instincts to be pretty and play with dolls. He is completely conforms to female stereotypes. It’s not a conscious decision, it’s an instinct. In “X”, however, gender appears to be a social construct because X is a combination of male and female stereotypes which shows that it is possible to be both.
ReplyDeleteI feel like gender identity is a combination of the society around you and your biological make up. I think that society definitely leads people to certain paths and doesn't force but almost guides them a specific way. I know that I feel like my gender identity is most likely a little different from a young woman's gender identity who grew up in a different society than I did. I think that gender identity can be biologically made up also. There are a lot of biological differences betweens females and males, which contribute to gender identities being made up biologically.
ReplyDeleteThis actually reminds me a lot of the race question; whether it's biological or socially constructed. Anyway though, both peices present characters that view gender identity as a biological feature (Ludovic's parents, neighbors, and friends, X's classmates) and both present main characters who feel that they have an identity separate from what people tell them they are. I think gender is part biological, and part socially constructed. There's no real defining line, and i think everyone has the right to choosing where they stand in the blur in terms of their own identity.
ReplyDeleteMa Vie En Rose argues that gender identity is biological. Despite Ludo's belief that he is a girl, everyone around him claims he is a boy due to his biological makeup. On the other hand, Baby X insinuates that gender identity is based on enviromental influences.
ReplyDeleteI think that gender identity is mostly socially constructed. When you're little, everyone has expectations of you--each of your actions are judged and categorized. If you're a girl, adults expect you to play with dolls, and if you're a boy, they expect you to play with trucks. Not meeting those expectations will get you teased and mocked, especially at school, where little kids are concerned more than anything about girls being girls and boys being boys. Those influences are what I think directs us the most.
I believe that gender is socially constructed, but you're sex is biological. THe gender of Ludovic would be female if he could choose to act the way of his choice, even though he will always be a boy. His choice is rejected however based on social issues involving other families not accepting his individualism and beliefs. If this were simply just biological, his change would not have caused such an uproar.
ReplyDeleteAlso, in Baby X it is also a social construction. It was not biological that the baby was neither girl or boy, it was just raised to not choose one gender over the other, and accept both ways of life. By doing so, the baby accepted both female and male features and attributes, all social aspects, while still maintaining its original sex.
Ma Vie En Rose claims that gender identity is biological. He truly believes that he is a girl, and was accidentally made physically a boy and put into the wrong body. X explains gender identity as something that is socially constructed, because they are able to shape X into whatever they want X to be. My view on this question is that gender identity is biological. I don't think that you can shape someone to be a specific gender, they are just born that way. There are many cases of very young people who believe that they are the wrong gender, and I don't think that would happen if gender identity was based on what society tells you. It seems like gender identity is almost instinctual, not a choice.
ReplyDeleteIn Ma Vie en Rose, Ludovic truly believes that G-d made a mistake, and lost one of his x's. He wants to believe that the way he acts is the result of his biology. However, I think that the movie as a whole makes a point of how gender rules are socially constructed. In ludovic's mind, there is nothing wrong with a boy coming to a party in a dress, but in society, that's not O.K. Baby X also shows how gender rules are socially constructed. In the story, parents get really upset when there is a kid in their child's class who does not fall into a distinct societal category. They want to know what gender x is really badly so that they can impose the laws of the world on him. Baby x shows that, no matter what gender a person is born into, society always wants to characterize them as one thing or another, and treat them accordingly. People don't know what to do when the traditional rules don't apply.
ReplyDeleteThere was a big difference in the messages of the movie and the Baby X story. Putting aside how unrealistic the events of the story were, in it, a child grows up fully aware of what gender it is, and not literally trying to challenge its biology. If it is a boy, it is trying to show that boys can do activities that society considers feminine. And vice versa if it is a girl. The story challenges gender roles and stereotypes, but not gender itself.
ReplyDeleteIn Ma Vie en Rose, Ludo truly believes that he is, or should be, a girl. He does not wear a dress to the party because he believes boys should wear dresses too. He does it because he knows that girls wear dresses, and thinks he is a girl. The movie acknowledges that gender roles may be socially constructed, but Ludo struggles with the fact that gender is biological.
In response to the question, I still believe that gender is purely biological. If Ludo and others believe that they should be a different gender, there is a problem. The solution should not be surgery or hormone therapy, (which only serve to complicated everyone's lives), but counseling and therapy.
Gender is both biological and and socially constructed. In "Ma Vie en Rose" gender is biological constructed. The little boy thought he was a girl based on what his mind is telling him and how he feels. Socially he wasn't excepted but that did not matter to him so gender being socially constructed did not affected him. However, society does have a way boys and girls are suspose to behave and act. Boys are suspose to behave like boys meaning they wear boys clothes, marry girls, play sports, and have short hair. His parents believe in their social rules of gender therefore making him behave like a boy. However, the little boy still assumes he is a girl and in the end the parents expect his little boy in wanting to be a girl. In "X" gender is socially constructed. Gender is socially constructed because the parents planted the idea of the baby X to be a boy and girl. They treated the baby like a boy and girl by following the socially rules of gender.
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in "Ma Vie en Rose" gender was treated as a biologically implanted characteristic. No matter what society told him, Ludovic remained confident that he was a girl. He believed God had made a mistake when assembling him, meaning that his biological construction was at fault, not society. In "X" society defined gender. By given the choice of choosing a gender, the baby is free to assign decide its own gender. Both stories deal with gender, but in a different way.
ReplyDelete"Ma Vie en Rose" displays the effects of biology on our gender identity. No matter how much society tried to influence Ludovic, he was still determined that it was part of who he was to be a female. It is the complete opposite with "X", driven entirely by society's definition of gender and the choice to be raised as male or female. I agree with the idea that gender identity cannot merely be brought on by your environment, but by your genetics.
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